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27 July 2009 @ 09:15 pm
The Worldwide Minority - are you part of it?  
Before reading further I need to clarify what I mean when I use the word minority in this context as this word seems to have caused some upset. I am in no way claiming to be on par or comparable to the minorities who have through the ages suffered due to their ethnicity, sexuality, religion or Culture.I  am only referring the fact that statistically many of us fall into a group that is out with the perceived mainstream in our popular cultural choices in film, tv, theatre, literature and music .
So to the original post.
 I apologise for this rant, but I can hold it in no longer, I've tried. 
Worldwide minority; this was defined by myself and a group of friends , a few years back, as those of us who still, despite no longer being teenagers, enjoy well written sci-fi & fantasy, from Terry Pratchett to BSG  and a lot in between. We also tend not to want endless soaps, reality TV or Jeremy Kyle (poor man's Jerry Springer) it' s amazing how many of us are out there and often those you wouldn't expect, try talking to people.
Thinking about all the comments flying around about how it is only a very few of us that are upset over CoE, I found myself thinking about the fact that I have accepted the fact that I am part of this worldwide minority. I am lucky though that I work for a small company that employs 12 people in the UK and  4 of us are part of this minority, I mean they hired me after I used Buffy as the basis of my presentation at the job interview.
We like Buffy, Angel, Firefly,BSG, Dr Who (pre Matt Smith), Torchwood S1-2, Reaper, The Wire and we do get a bit obsessive  about the programmes we love.  The strange thing is when we love a show we bring our friends with us and when annoyed or betrayed we leave again.
We Mr Davies whether you like it or not are the ones that got Torchwood from the obscurity of BBC3 to BBC1, by being loyal and encouraging others , so without us you couldn't have got there, something to ponder on when considering future projects.  I know I am not the only one who will not bother with your efforts again as there is no point in investing in your characters as the odds are they will be killed or I need to have amnesia or be retconned as regards previous plot/backplot.
 
 
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ally_p_xally_p_x on July 27th, 2009 08:20 pm (UTC)
I am a minority as well! Apparantly.



Erinetmuse on July 27th, 2009 08:25 pm (UTC)
I think the fact that any of us read these comms means we are in that 'minority'.

Although I think you might be a tad unfair in limiting your Dr Who likage to pre-Matt Smith - I think we need to at least give the guy a chance to show us what he can do!
(and remember, by the time we get to his eps, Rusty will have nothing to do with Dr Who anymore!)
non sum pisces: RTD: KILLED our IANTO & I hate himnever_more_cat on July 27th, 2009 08:37 pm (UTC)
Hello, my name is Ruth and I am a minority.

Oh, and RTD is a cock. TRUFAX.
I'd call you a genius but I'm in the roomelfinessy on July 27th, 2009 08:47 pm (UTC)
Your icon is brilliant!!!
(Deleted comment)
I'd call you a genius but I'm in the roomelfinessy on July 27th, 2009 08:46 pm (UTC)
::hand up:: I'm definitely in that minority.
gingerbreadlass: jantogingerbreadlass on July 27th, 2009 08:55 pm (UTC)
Member of the minority and proud. X-Men fan (I got into it before the third film and my two favourite characters got offed in the first hour, now onto the comics for my fix) and partial to a little Star Trek every now and again. Doctor Who occasionally gets too silly for me but I do like it. I also possess a very addictive personality, to the point where I get too emotionally invested and am consequently upset.

Woohoo, am I out of the majority closet now? This makes me happy. :D
Sugar: me toojovialien on July 27th, 2009 08:58 pm (UTC)
"Even if 90 percent look away, what sort of a world are you leaving behind?"

I am a minority.
anfarwolalicatt13 on July 27th, 2009 09:32 pm (UTC)
Part of the minority and proud. Except we're not really a minority, are we? Sci Fi fans are a huge population world-wide. Just think of the hundreds and hundreds of cons.
ANd out of Torchwood fans, so far I haven't met any that were happy about what happened. Of course, there are some I know that aren't nearly as upset as I am, but so far no one I actually know was pleased with the turn of events or was like, that's sad but it makes so much sense.
Still, I'm proud to be a part of you lot, majority or minority.
techmusetechmuse on July 27th, 2009 10:08 pm (UTC)
"I want to be the minority - I don't need your authority - down with the RTD majority - I want to be the minority" I changed the moral to RTD, but anyhoo this song popped in my head while reading the article. If you read the lyrics they actually kind of fit. I am proud to be a part of this minority...and will continue to appreciate posts like these that continue to give voice to our displeasure with RTD and his attitude of blatant disregard to the fans.
wandering diversion: gd puppy pilesurreality_fan on July 27th, 2009 10:26 pm (UTC)
MWAHAHAHA! I have totally had Minority in my head since I first saw this post... granted it is sandwiched near a Green Day comm post on my f-list. I also just saw Green Day in concert in Philly and they played Minority.

Mine is a many faceted geekiness. I can even geek about cool stuff. *nods*

Long Live Ianto!

Edited at 2009-07-27 10:27 pm (UTC)
ThunderingLunie: Torchwood - RTDlunachickk on July 27th, 2009 10:34 pm (UTC)
Screw minority. We Are Legion.
artemis314artemis314 on July 27th, 2009 11:02 pm (UTC)
I am very much in this minority with you. I read an interview where Mr. Davies was an absolute ass to people that feel the way we do, he was so condescending and petty about the whole thing I don't think I'll tune in to anything else he comes up with. The truth is that the only reason I even watched "Children of Earth" was Ianto so I have no reason to return if the show ever comes back since I have no interest in Gwen or the cartoon that Jack has become.
sarahjane6 on July 27th, 2009 11:16 pm (UTC)
HEY, I'm a member of a minority group!

Too often creative people forget who helped them become successful, they become assured that THEIR talent is enough and we the little people should be grateful that they allow us to watch the results of their great talent...then they fail and fall into obscurity. I can't wait!
RogueMarch: Torchwood: Sweet Jantoness!roguemarch on July 28th, 2009 03:34 am (UTC)
Minority here. And damn proud.
pondelion on July 28th, 2009 08:46 am (UTC)
I am a minority.
rmrm on July 28th, 2009 12:26 pm (UTC)
Subcutlures, because they are by definition not the mainstream dominant culture, are technically minorities.

But here's the deal, I'm a minority because I'm queer, because I'm Jewish, because I am not as white as look.

Engaging with entertainment in a non-culturally dominant way may be responsible for affecting the tone of huge swathes of my life, but it doesn't define it. Being a member of an actual minority does.

I am not a minority because I like SF/F or because I cried and cried and cried for Ianto or even because I have an unpopular fannish opinion in the sense that I'm not all worked up about RTD and whether he respects fandom or not -- I don't care, I don't need his approval.

Believe me, I get what you are saying. For older fen in particular, there is this very real sense of being in this small, sort of looked down upon subculture and since many of us interact with the world differently than the mainstream (there are studies on the high incidence of the non-neurotypical in the fannish community), I do sort of get why you chose this angle to frame your point.

But with things like Harry Potter, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, Comic Con, Dragon*Con, and, yes, the Children of Earth miniseries, fannishness is now a pretty nearly mainstream activity.

But more than that: no one ever threw beer bottles at me for being fannish. No one ever threatened to rape me for being fannish. No one fucking threatened to beat my face in with a brick for being fannish. They have (the first two) because I was gay and (the third) because I'm Jewish.

Considering one of the biggest plot points, and now fandom controversies, relates to the show's handling of Ianto's sexually, you really might want to check yourself here.

I am a minority and it's not because I loved a man who never was, even though I did.

Edited at 2009-07-28 01:19 pm (UTC)
The Sandwich of Solidarity: no waishane_mayhem on July 28th, 2009 05:45 pm (UTC)
WHAT YOU SAID x A BILLION.

I think people need to do a little tiny bit of reality-checking here. I understand the argument that "the real world sucks and is full of pain, thus fandom, etc..." but honestly? "Minority" in the way they are using it here is a very culturally laden word, and it comes with a history of oppression and violence, not of feeling betrayed because the producer of your favorite TV show killed off your favorite character.

I mean, really.

I'm a minority because I'm gay and transgendered. And proud of it.

I'm also aware that there are people who are even more in the minority than I am (black, Jewish, Muslim, what have you) and I'm proud of them for being who they are. In real life.
Blackbird Songblackbird_song on July 29th, 2009 01:30 am (UTC)
Very well said. Thank you.

Catherine
Christian A. Youngbodlon on July 29th, 2009 05:41 pm (UTC)
This. Always and ever this.
jsks on July 28th, 2009 12:40 pm (UTC)
and proud of it.
just because i like sci fi and torchwood means that i have to give up iq points to watch it. to all that praise coe as great drama - maybe but when you are watching all you can think of is the plot holes and comparing characters from the 2 seasons prior and suddenly intelligent people are acting well not so bright then something is wrong. rtd mentions "great drama" anyone remember alien sex gas.
Pyter De Winterwolfchylde on July 28th, 2009 12:46 pm (UTC)
Heyyyyyy I LIKED that episode :P
:D
Eumelia: lambda warrioreumelia on July 28th, 2009 01:03 pm (UTC)
Yeah, okay, I'm not a minority here.

As has been written before me, loving and crying over and mourning over a character who was written by someone doesn't make me a minority.

Looking at Real Life Fandom (cons, magazines, etc) and the sheer amount of cred we as fans are given by merely participating in these events doesn't make us minorities.
You're feeling oppressed because RTD wrote something that didn't go the way you wanted?
That's entitlement.

RTD doesn't owe us anything. His opinions on fandom, fans or even his own work have little (see none) bearing on my love for his work.

Loving and obsessing over Torcwwod, Doctor Who, Batman, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Slash, Gen or even Het doesn't make me a minority.

One of the reasons I identified with Ianto and still get teary thinking about his beautiful, heroic and fucking epic (in the context of TW) death was because I saw myself in him, as a minority, on my screen.
A literary and media subculture has no bearing on how I live, which is affected by the fact of whether I am considered as human as the person sitting next to me on the bus.
Generally speaking, where I live, portions of my life are considered less than human.

Check your damn privilege before you start flaunting your entitlement.
Mellacitamellacita on July 28th, 2009 01:15 pm (UTC)
I'm a private university-educated, heterosexual, white person who grew up in an American suburb in a married, two-parent household. There are a lot of things that set me apart, and perhaps my love of sci-fi/fantasy is one of them, but claiming the word "minority" for myself just feels uncomfortable. My best friend's father was beaten in Mississippi during the 60s for being black. Another friend and his partner struggled for 7 years before they were allowed to adopt their foster child, because they were gay.

So while I agree with you in spirit, that we're a bit of a rare breed, the word "minority" has too much behind it for me to claim it.
smirnoffmule on July 28th, 2009 01:46 pm (UTC)
I am familiar with both the sensation of being outed as an SF fan and being outed as queer - the former might bring some good-natured derision, the latter is an issue of how people accept me as a human being, and view my rights to live as one. Until the human rights of SF fans become the concern of the law courts and protesters in the streets, until you fear for your safety in a crowd because you like Buffy, then, no, I'm afraid the word "minority" is not really applicable here. It is disrespectful to groups who have struggled to co-opt this term for your own purposes.

Words have power, as our love for fiction ought to teach us. Remember this when you choose them.
tod_hollykimtod_hollykim on July 28th, 2009 01:57 pm (UTC)
Yeah, minority is kind of a strong word here, specially with all the real minorities out there.

Now, I have been a science fiction fan practically since I could read. Way back in the bad old days when we got a few movies a year and only had Twilight Zone and the Outer Limits (the original series) on regular television. I remember the first episode of Star Trek.

Now a days, we ain't a minority. My favorite genres are mainstream. The number of top grossing movies and prime time TV shows show that.

Did I hate the fact that a fictional character got killed off to tell a story? Yeah. I liked Ianto and I was very upset that Jack used his own grandson and wound up killing him, too. But it fit the story and made it more real. Because let me tell you something:

In real life, people die.

I know. In the past few years, I've lost my mother, my stepfather, in-laws, dear friends, and people from the media I was fans of that I will miss terribly.

Besides, Torchwood isn't your toy. It's RTD's. And he can do with it what he wants. Including killing off characters as he has done. Not everything can end on a happy and fluffy note. Deal with it.

If you really want to do something positive with that emotion, turn it around and do something in the real world. Support some charity, some human rights cause, something!

But to get your knickers in a twist over a fictional character's death- not cool. It only upholds the nerd living in his/her parents' basement stereotype. And that is something we have been fighting for years to get rid, from even before I was a fan.
jsks on July 28th, 2009 06:25 pm (UTC)
rtd may have created torchwood but it belongs to bbc wales who recieves funding from not only tv ads but tv fees. bbc wales wants to make money and if enough fans boycott rtd's shows it will not hesitate to pull the plug or turn the show over another producer.. as a american i can point out the example of aaron sorkin the creator of one the best dramas ever, the west wing who lost control of his show just before the 4th season. so rtd' toys his rules meets my rule, my time and money do not have to support your shows . enough people share that view rtd will soon find himself an ex tv writer.
real life equals death- i work in a hospital it offends me to see death used a plot device becuase the writer lacks imagnation.
rtd is an adult, which means that along with the praise and awards he is also going to have deal with people saying that his work might suck.
what is not cool is when you have fans who raised serious questions about about plot and inflammatory word choices to be dismissed as silly "fangirls" .
this has gone well beyond the death of ianto, to me as a adult sci fi fan it means i will not stay silent when i see bad writing anymore . the worst stereotype is that sci fi shows equals lack of quality drama because the fans don't care , show us the shiny monsters .
do something positive- please don't mention this to star trek fans who kept that show live for the past 43 years or fans of roswell, daniel of sga both of which were brought back by fan campaigns.
tod_hollykimtod_hollykim on July 28th, 2009 06:54 pm (UTC)
1) There are not enough fans who are upset by COE that can change things with the BBC. So RTD's job is safe.

2) And if it does, that will be the most chilling effect on creativity ever. TV by committee? Sorry, I don't like to think about the level of crap we will get that. Worse than we do now.

3) I think the story for COE was brillant. A very well told story that showed a lot of imagnation. The fact it hit so many people so hard proves that.

I saw no bad writing in Torchwood: Children of Earth. It dealt with a lot of issues and gave the characters choices that were bad or worse and dealt with what happened bcause of those choices. It was one of the better examples of science fiction on TV today.
jsks on July 28th, 2009 08:57 pm (UTC)
thre question is a matter of time. coe might have opened stong but does it have legs? will non-fans watch when other options are available. the movie watchman started out strong and as word of mouth spread it' s earnings went south fast
what new ground did coe break as political drama, social commentary that we have not seen in other shows with much stronger plots and and storylines.
as for no bad writing. how to explain plot holes such the in uk cctv is over all london yet the scooby gang went out in broad daylight, contacted government officals, ianto went shopping , jack stole a exspensive car that must have had an alarm system yet triggered no alerts.
they have being monitering 3 people for months, yet did know not jack had family that he seemed to visit openly, yet how many times did alice call before they had a clue. basic spycraft would require the montiering of family, friends and work mates anyone who might help yet nothing. despite that johnson and company knew andy was friendly with gwen(had made statements to this affect) gwen was able to call him and arrange clem's release again setting of no alerts.
jack the connman had no back up plans, this is the man who stashed guns in his rear. ianto of the first 2 seasons who tracked the suv, rigged the phone to the water tower, the security officer for the hub loses the suv(with all the weapons and alien tech it contains don't tell me it has no better security system that a family car) and does nothing about recovering it before returning to the hub on day 1 yet on day 2 tells her sister that he can track anything on a laptop. the list goes on. that is not just bad writing it is lazy.
Admission to the Burning Ruins — 10¢: Flash Gordon  -  Flaming Rocket of Lurvelaughingacademy on July 28th, 2009 03:06 pm (UTC)
Oh, not *again*
Fandom is a subculture — which is, arguably, becoming the mainstream, one bestseller and blockbuster at a time. Fandom is a vibrant and fractious community which I am glad to be part of. But although I have made jokes about “passing for a mundane,” fandom is not some kind of unacknowledged and oppressed elite. Anyone who has heard about or witnessed some of the godawful things that happen at cons knows that fans can be as petty, mean, or thoughtless as anyone.

Fans are not Slans. We weren’t in 1940 and we aren’t today.
thatwordgrrl on July 28th, 2009 03:11 pm (UTC)
Name me one person who has lost their life as a direct result of being involved in fandom.

G'head. I'll wait.

janiemcjaniemc on July 28th, 2009 03:55 pm (UTC)
Hi I am writing to clarify what I meant by minority. I was in no way comparing myself or friends to those who through prejudice about their sexuality, religion, race or colour have suffered or lost their lives. I only intended it in the sense of percentage of the population who have a taste in film, tv, theatre or literature that is outside the perceived mainstream. So I apologise if offense was caused as it was genuinely not intentional.
janiemcjaniemc on July 28th, 2009 06:33 pm (UTC)
In answer to your query....Unfortunately here in the UK a teenage girl was kicked to death for being a Goth last year, you can google this if you want to double check my facts. I also have friends that know a young man(well he is now) who was attacked by a group of boys with part of a concrete block because they didn't like his clothes his music or the fact he read comics. After 3 weeks in a coma he has made an astounding recovery relearning many of his motor skills . Before you ask I am not giving his name to you as that is not my right.
So thankfully its rare that anyone gets hurt, but yes it happens.
thatwordgrrl on July 28th, 2009 08:20 pm (UTC)
Ok. Two people.

Care to guess how many people in the UK over the last year lost their lives because they were the wrong race? Or gay? Or disabled?

Sorry -- the two just don't equate, just based on sheer numbers.

I'm a fan. But I'm not marginalized because I'm a fan. I get that for entirely different reasons.

Attempting to equate a love of SF with being a minority is, at best, clueless, and at worst outright dismissive.
janiemcjaniemc on July 28th, 2009 09:28 pm (UTC)
As I have already posted I was not comparing myself with social minority groups, this was actually meant as a somewhat light hearted rant. I am sorry that my use of the word offended you, and I responded to your previous query, based on just personal knowledge, I am afraid I don't have time to go looking for more incidents. I also wish to add that personally as a nurse while 2 incidents may not seem many, to me any death or injury that is caused by the small mindness or careless of another is indefensible. After saying that I am going to back away from this, and I hope you feel you can too.
Best wishes
Janie mc
sanguisgodofstrife on July 28th, 2009 03:19 pm (UTC)
all the comments flying around about how it is only a very few of us that are upset over CoE, I found myself thinking about the fact that I have accepted the fact that I am part of this worldwide minority.

While I agree that there are less SF/F fans in the world than, say, white, straight males, you are clearly confusing numeric minorities (e.g. subcultures) with the contemporarily political and social meaning behind the term minority. I'm part of subcultures like SF/F, FPS games, gothic scene and I belong to minorities (mixed ethnics, gay, living in a foreign country), only being part of the latter has ever subjected me to discrimination.
Please think about different meanings many words in our language have before you apply them to yourself or anyone else.

From the comments: I'm a minority.

We are Pope! (Please some get this reference)

janiemcjaniemc on July 28th, 2009 03:43 pm (UTC)
Hi I am writing this to clarify what I meant by minority. I was no way claiming the tag of social minority as it rightfully belongs to those who depending on where they live are considered to be outside the mainstream through sexuality, religious belief, race or colour. I was only talking about the cultural sense of film, tv, drama and writing. If it was felt I meant anything else I apologise as this was not intended.
amber: REALLYbentley on July 28th, 2009 03:51 pm (UTC)
Friendly tip, since I don't know whether you plan to reply to everyone here individually; you might want to edit this post with an "ETA" (edited to add) which includes your awareness of your misappropriation and your apology, which will maybe halt further telling off.

Fandom's been a little on edge about co-opting certain terms thanks to recent Star Trek drama, and "minority" can be such a loaded word, you know?
janiemcjaniemc on July 28th, 2009 04:00 pm (UTC)
Hi as someone new to this, can you tell me how to do that,as I would like to post a general as well as replying to some individually.
Thanks for your suggestion and hopefully help.
amber: GEEKbentley on July 28th, 2009 04:17 pm (UTC)
Absolutely! You should be able to edit the entry by clicking this link - if not, look for the link up the top of the page labeled Edit Entry. Commenters won't be notified of your edit, but it will remain there for anyone coming along to this post or going through jackxianto in the future.

(re-commenting with the fixed link, sorry.)
janiemcjaniemc on July 28th, 2009 05:49 pm (UTC)
Thanks for that.
sanguisgodofstrife on July 28th, 2009 04:01 pm (UTC)
Yep. That's what I wanted to suggest, as well, but bentley said it in much more friendly words. :P
amber: KISSESbentley on July 28th, 2009 03:44 pm (UTC)
Wir ind Papst!
sanguisgodofstrife on July 28th, 2009 03:51 pm (UTC)
YAY! That's the one. You gotta love the Bild Zeitung.
Jeanbluejeans07 on July 28th, 2009 04:33 pm (UTC)
I think what's being missed here is that major television studios can and will monitor the number of viewers watching shows and also are in a place where reactions, criticisms and backlashes are also numbered and kept for reference. In this scope compared to the physical reactions and backlash that RTD and CoE have experienced, then yes, the number of people actually taking action compared to the the number of total viewers (and factoring in people who downloaded/watched on streaming/etc) is SMALL. Fandom seems to see things in a slightly skewed and narrow scope sometimes, one fan seeing another or seeing a small group, whereas a TV studio and a big one like BBC Wales that has hundreds of people and technology at their disposal whose jobs are to monitor this stuff thoroughly will see things in a much broader perspective.
Love! Slash! Angst!loveslashangst on July 28th, 2009 06:48 pm (UTC)
And we are being silenced.
According to RTD, only 9 people in all of fandom cared enough about Ianto to protest, and that protest was the quaint idea of sending packets of coffee to the BBC.

According to RTD, the only way of creating emotion and drama is to force characters to do things that go against reason, sense, and established character.

According to RTD, being a writer gives him godlike power, and killing characters with the stroke of a key is really quite enjoyable.

According to RTD, the BBC doesn't care what fans think and never will.

According to RTD, the minute your show hits BBC1, you don't have to care what the fans think who made you the hit you are.

According to me, as a fan, as a bisexual woman, as a fanfic writer, as all the other weird and wonderful things I am, RTD's opinion of me means nothing.

We are legion.

We are angry.

We are SO over him.
Christian A. Youngbodlon on July 29th, 2009 05:40 pm (UTC)
The addition of that first paragraph really isn't offsetting the entitled handwaving that real minorities are objecting to. It kind of draws attention to it, really.

Just, you know, FYI.